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Topic: MIDIYoke NT in Sonar with DXI Synth? (Read 7635 times) |
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maiki
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MIDIYoke NT in Sonar with DXI Synth?
« on: Jan 5th, 2005, 12:42pm » |
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Hello,
Running Windows XP Pro SP1, and Sonar 4.01.
I downloaded and installed the newest version of Midiyoke NT, so that I could use Bome's Mouse Keyboard
http://www.bome.com/midi/keyboard/
as a MIDI input device with Sonar.
I set MIDI Out on Bome's to MIDIYOKE NT1. I set the MIDI input device in Sonar, and in the track itself, to MIDIYOKE NT1.
It works if the output of the MIDI track is a system-wide synth. But if the track is set to play on a DXI plug-in synth, Bome's (through MIDIYOKE) doesn't work as an input.
Anyone have any idea why this is happening, and if there is a way I can fix it?
Thank you.
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maiki
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Re: MIDIYoke NT in Sonar with DXI Synth?
« Reply #1 on: Jan 5th, 2005, 12:44pm » |
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Something else I discovered about this.
I found that if I press the record button and actually start recording, then I do hear the sound from the DXI synth (using Bome's virtual keyboard through MIDIYOKE as the input), and the sequence is recorded.
However, if I haven't actually started to record though, but have the track selected (set to DXI synth), MIDI Through set to ON, even if I arm the track, no sound comes through at all, using the virtual controller. (Once again, if I do the same with a system-wide synth instead of DXI, I do hear the sound in that situation. And if I use a real keyboard controller instead of the virtual one with the DXI synth, I also hear it. So this problem only occurs when using the virtual controller (Bome's through MIDIYOKE) with a DXI synth, and not actually recording yet.) (Every other combination of the tthree variables--virtual or real controller, DXI or system-wide synth, and actually recording or not--works. But with the virtual controller, DXI synth, and actual recording not started-- no sound!) (I sometimes wish to play the synth to audition the sounds, before actual recording.)
Anyone know why this might be happening? Possible solutions?
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Jamie OConnell
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Re: MIDIYoke NT in Sonar with DXI Synth?
« Reply #2 on: Jan 5th, 2005, 6:01pm » |
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If it sounds while you're recording, it seems like MIDI Yoke is working properly. To be sure, do you see the Cakewalk MIDI Indicator input lamps flash (on the SONAR Status Bar), even when you do not hear anything? If so, MIDI data is still arriving OK.
For a SoftSynth to sound while the transport is at rest, the Audio engine MUST be running to stream audio. Check that the Audio Engine Icon on either the Large or Small transport is highlighted (green), or check Transport | Audio is checked (pressed) and says "Stop Audio". If it says "Run Audio" it is currently stopped.
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--Jamie
Music is its own reward.
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maiki
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Re: MIDIYoke NT in Sonar with DXI Synth?
« Reply #3 on: Jan 6th, 2005, 12:08am » |
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Thank you very much for the detailed response, Jamie! 
I looked into the things you mention. Is the Cakewalk MIDI indicator that little keyboard in the Windows System Tray? I do see tiny red lights flash on it, every time I hit a key in Bome's Mouse keyboard, set up as described. I guess that means the MIDI messages are getting through, even though I hear no sound.
I made sure the audio engine was running, but still no sound.
What could be causing this behavior?
Could it have something to do with the audio track's echo status? As I wrote, I have Echo=On for the MIDI track. On the audio track (for DXI synth) however, I see no control to toggle its echo on and off. (On normal audio tracks there is also such a control. But if the audio track has a DXI track as input, the echo control disappears. (Perhaps it is controlled automatically by the MIDI track's echo status.) Is there a way to check, however, if that audio track is set to Echo=On?
Any other ideas?
on Jan 5th, 2005, 6:01pm, Jamie OConnell wrote:If it sounds while you're recording, it seems like MIDI Yoke is working properly. To be sure, do you see the Cakewalk MIDI Indicator input lamps flash (on the SONAR Status Bar), even when you do not hear anything? If so, MIDI data is still arriving OK.
For a SoftSynth to sound while the transport is at rest, the Audio engine MUST be running to stream audio. Check that the Audio Engine Icon on either the Large or Small transport is highlighted (green), or check Transport | Audio is checked (pressed) and says "Stop Audio". If it says "Run Audio" it is currently stopped.
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Jamie OConnell
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Re: MIDIYoke NT in Sonar with DXI Synth?
« Reply #4 on: Jan 6th, 2005, 5:55pm » |
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I tried to reproduce your observation, but could not: I always get sound from the SoftSynth. At rest or during record/playback. Perhaps it is related to a particular SoftSynth you're using: which one is it?
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Music is its own reward.
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maiki
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Re: MIDIYoke NT in Sonar with DXI Synth?
« Reply #5 on: Jan 8th, 2005, 12:40am » |
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on Jan 6th, 2005, 5:55pm, Jamie OConnell wrote:I tried to reproduce your observation, but could not: I always get sound from the SoftSynth. At rest or during record/playback. Perhaps it is related to a particular SoftSynth you're using: which one is it?
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I tried different ones, including the TTS that came with Sonar, and VSC that came with Band in a Box. The problem occurred with all DXI plugin synths. Not with system-wide soft synths, however. For example, I have Yamaha SYXG50 installed, and the problem does not occur with that soft synth.
Were you using the Bome's Mouse Keyboard as the MIDI in device, with output set to MIDIYOKE NT 1, and MIDIYOKE NT 1 set as the input device for the track with the softsynth?
If you don't have the same problem, I wonder if it could have something to do with my settings? Any idea what setting could cause that problem, considering the variables I mentioned?
Thanks again for your response,
Mike
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Jamie OConnell
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Re: MIDIYoke NT in Sonar with DXI Synth?
« Reply #6 on: Jan 8th, 2005, 6:40pm » |
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Yes to all questiopns: I downloaded the latest Bome beta, and used MIDI Yoke 1 as the conduit. I used TTS as the test device.
I have no settings suggestions beyond the several I have mentioned earlier. It makes no sense to me that a hardware controller will work and trigger the MIDI Activity meter in the status bar, while a software controller will trigger the MIDI activity Meter, but make no sound. Unless your velocity ouptut from Bome is so low that you don't hear any sound, but that's unlikely.
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maiki
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Re: MIDIYoke NT in Sonar with DXI Synth?
« Reply #7 on: Jan 8th, 2005, 11:34pm » |
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[quote author=Jamie OConnell Unless your velocity ouptut from Bome is so low that you don't hear any sound, but that's unlikely.
[/quote]
Especially since I do hear the sound while actually recording, but not otherwise, although MIDI thru (echo) is turned on for the track, audio engine running, etc.
Bome's isn't velocity sensitive. I think one can manually adjust the velocity offset, but I didn't make any such adjustments, so all the notes were probably the default velocity, whatever that is.
Well, if you get any ideas about this, please let me know.
Thank you.
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Jamie OConnell
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Re: MIDIYoke NT in Sonar with DXI Synth?
« Reply #8 on: Jan 9th, 2005, 4:27pm » |
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If the Audio engine is running (Button on transport is BRIGHT GREEN), you should hear sound. The audio engine can dropout occasionally for various reasons. Please verify that this is not occuring so that you can rule it out.
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Music is its own reward.
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maiki
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Re: MIDIYoke NT in Sonar with DXI Synth?
« Reply #9 on: Jan 22nd, 2005, 11:44pm » |
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on Jan 9th, 2005, 4:27pm, Jamie OConnell wrote:If the Audio engine is running (Button on transport is BRIGHT GREEN), you should hear sound. The audio engine can dropout occasionally for various reasons. Please verify that this is not occuring so that you can rule it out.
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Hi Jamie,
Thanks again for your response.
I'm still having this problem. Not just occasionally, but every time I try it.
To rule out a particular setup, I even tried on a different computer, using a different soundcard, and had the same problem. I don't know why it worked for you, and not for me with different setups. I wonder if something about my Sonar settings could be diffferent than yours?
I'm using Sonar 4.01 (on one conmputer just upgraded to 4.02) Studio Edition. As I said, this problem only occurs with a DXI synth. If the MIDI track is routed to playback on a system-wide softsynth, like the Yamaha SYXG50 that I have, then one will hear the sound.
(Again, speaking of a MIDI track that's routed to a DXI synth, there is no recording or playback going on, the track is selected and echo is turned on, the audio engine is running, MIDI channel, bank, and patch are all chosen. Bome's Mouse Keyboard set to MIDIYOKE NT 1 for MIDI OUT, and MIDI IN for the selected track set to that same port. And if I actually record, then what I play on Bome's is recorded to that track, and I hear it while recording. But while transport is stopped, although audio engine is running, and MIDI through is On for that track, I don't hear any sound, if the output synth is a DXI.
Again, if I have the exact same situation but using a hardware controller, no virtual cable, one does hear the sound with the transport at rest.
Is it possible I have to change some setting for the audio track that the MIDI track feeds into in a DXI synth?f
Very strange, eh? Can you figure out anything about it?
I sometimes wish to audition different sounds, not recording, and therefore would want to play the sounds without recording. If I don't have a hardware controller handy, the mouse-computer keyboard input comes in handy. (I sure wish Cakewalk had updated their Vpiano program to work in XP! Any idea why they did not? In some ways wasn't as nice as the Bome program, but in one very important aspect was much preferable, IMO. It installed itself as a system-wide MIDI input device, therefore not needing any virtual cables.) (No offense re virtual cables.
 )
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maiki
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Re: MIDIYoke NT in Sonar with DXI Synth?
« Reply #10 on: Jan 23rd, 2005, 1:45am » |
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on Jan 9th, 2005, 4:27pm, Jamie OConnell wrote:If the Audio engine is running (Button on transport is BRIGHT GREEN), you should hear sound.
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Something occurred to me about that. When Sonar is the active application, that buttton on the transport is bright green. However, to use the virtual keyboard, you have to highlight its title bar, and Sonar is no longer highlighted. In that case, that button on the transport bar is no longer bright green. (There still is a green "Midi Through" button on the track itself.) (And, as I said, it works this way to actually record, although Sonar is not the highlighted application.)
Just wondering if that could possibly have something to do with it, as that button on the transport bar is no longer bright green, when one highlights the virtual keyboard app?
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Jamie OConnell
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Re: MIDIYoke NT in Sonar with DXI Synth?
« Reply #11 on: Jan 23rd, 2005, 4:49pm » |
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Yes! As I have been saying, the Audio Engine MUST be running, or you won't hear anything. When the Audio Engine is running, the Run Audio button is bright green, and it says "Audio Running" in green on the Status Bar. Tabbing away from the application does NOT cause the Audio Engine to stop on my machine, or the button to change color.
If the Audio Engine becomes starved for CPU time it will stop. Maybe some setting on your system is preventing good multi-tasking or background processes from running.
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maiki
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Re: MIDIYoke NT in Sonar with DXI Synth?
« Reply #12 on: Jan 23rd, 2005, 6:13pm » |
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on Jan 23rd, 2005, 4:49pm, Jamie OConnell wrote:Yes! As I have been saying, the Audio Engine MUST be running, or you won't hear anything. When the Audio Engine is running, the Run Audio button is bright green, and it says "Audio Running" in green on the Status Bar. Tabbing away from the application does NOT cause the Audio Engine to stop on my machine, or the button to change color.
If the Audio Engine becomes starved for CPU time it will stop. Maybe some setting on your system is preventing good multi-tasking or background processes from running.
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I just checked it. When the focus goes to the Bome keyboard, the green letters "Audio Running" are still there at the bottom of the Sonar screen, look just the same as before. The button in the transport toolbar does change color though, does not remain the same bright green, just as the titlebar changes from the bright blue to a pale blue.
Are you sure the color on your audio engine button in the transport remains that same bright green, even when the focus is shifted to the virtual keyboard? Your title bar changes shade, no?
Again though, the statement "Audio Engine Running" is still there on mine when that occurs.
If you think that is the problem, I wonder what setting on my system could possibly be causing that? Any ideas?
Thanks again.
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maiki
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Re: MIDIYoke NT in Sonar with DXI Synth?
« Reply #13 on: Feb 5th, 2005, 12:28pm » |
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I still haven't solved this. I would appreciate it if anyone has any ideas.
As I wrote, when I change the active application to Bome's, the audio engine button in Sonar 4 does not remain bright green. However, it still says "Audio Engine Running" in the Status Bar.
Also, as I wrote, if I click the record button, so Sonar actually records, then the plug-in synth does sound, while controlling it with Bome's. In that case that button does not remain bright green either, when I make Bome's the active application.
So--I'm not sure if that light not remaining green has something to do with it, because it also doesn't remain green when recording (after switching focus to Bome's), yet one hears the sound then. Also, it always still says "Audio Engine Running" in Status Bar, including when not recording.
I have tried right after re-booting the computer, with no background programs or other applications running, and this still happens.
Again--to sum up--Sonar 4-Bome's Virtual Keyboard set to MIDIYOKE 1 out, input for MIDI track set to MIDIYoke 1 in. If the Midiyoke output is to a systemwide synth, such as Microsoft Wavetable SYnth, or Yamaha SYXG50, Bome's works fine to control the track. If however, I set the MIDI output of the track to a DXI or VSC plugin synth, although MIDI echo is set to on on the track, and the status bar says "audio engine running", one hears no sound when playing the virtual keyboard, unless one has pressed the record button and is actually recording.
WIth a hardware controller one does hear the plugin synth, and not only when recording.
Any other suggestions?
on Jan 23rd, 2005, 4:49pm, Jamie OConnell wrote:Yes! As I have been saying, the Audio Engine MUST be running, or you won't hear anything. When the Audio Engine is running, the Run Audio button is bright green, and it says "Audio Running" in green on the Status Bar. Tabbing away from the application does NOT cause the Audio Engine to stop on my machine, or the button to change color.
If the Audio Engine becomes starved for CPU time it will stop. Maybe some setting on your system is preventing good multi-tasking or background processes from running.
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maiki
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Re: MIDIYoke NT in Sonar with DXI Synth?
« Reply #14 on: Feb 5th, 2005, 1:40pm » |
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I wonder if it could be a setting in Sonar, that I should change? I looked at the settings, and didn't see anything that I thought would affect this, but there could be something I'm not aware of.
I don't know if it makes a difference, but I only recently upgraded to Sonar 4 (now using 4.0.2) (Studio Edition), from Cakewalk Pro Audio 9.0.3. (I haven't used an earlier Sonar version.) In the installation process, it detected the CWPA9 installation, and asked if I wished to transfer settings from it. I clicked OK. I'm wondering if some setting from CWPA9 might have messed something up in Sonar 4?
Is there any possible Sonar setting that could be causing the problem I described?
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Jamie OConnell
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Re: MIDIYoke NT in Sonar with DXI Synth?
« Reply #15 on: Feb 6th, 2005, 8:43pm » |
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I know of no setting that would have an effect on the problem you describe. I think it must lie elsewhere. What is bizzare to me is that it again starts working when you're in record mode.
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--Jamie
Music is its own reward.
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maiki
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Re: MIDIYoke NT in Sonar with DXI Synth?
« Reply #16 on: Feb 8th, 2005, 11:50pm » |
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on Feb 6th, 2005, 8:43pm, Jamie OConnell wrote:I know of no setting that would have an effect on the problem you describe. I think it must lie elsewhere. What is bizzare to me is that it again starts working when you're in record mode.
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Yes, when I press the record button, then I hear the input played from Bome's keyboard, while recording, and it plays back. When not recording I don't hear anything, if the track's output is to a VST or DXI plug-in synth, although the track's is set to ECHO=On, although it says at the bottom "Audio Engine Running" (although, as I said, the green button for that at the top does change color when I change the active application to be Bome's rather than Sonar), and although one can see activity in the MIDI meter that Sonar puts in the system tray.
Thanks again for replying, Jamie. If you ever get any ideas regarding what could possibly be causing this behavior (again, same result for me on two different computers), please let me know. If you cannot figure this out (and I understand you work for Sonar, as well as being the creator of MIDIYOKE), I doubt anyone else can. Perhaps the solution will come to you one day.
Sure would be nice if there were such a virtual keyboard that worked in XP as a direct MIDI input, without needing a virtual MIDI cable, as the old Cakewalk Vpiano did (unfortunately doesn't work in XP, never updated to do so.) Perhaps you could convince Cakewalk to employ you to write an updated version of their VPiano, that will work in Win XP or 2000, and be a system MIDI IN port. I would guess that with your expertise you could probably fairly easily write an applet like that, no? (Is that more difficult to do in XP than it was in 95/98? Is that why the CW VPiano was never updated for XP?)
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Jamie OConnell
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Re: MIDIYoke NT in Sonar with DXI Synth?
« Reply #17 on: Feb 17th, 2005, 1:31pm » |
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Actually VPiano had it's own one-way virtual driver so it would likely have the same effect. Have you tried using the MIDI-OX Keyboard with MIDI Yoke? Do you get different results from using Bome?
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--Jamie
Music is its own reward.
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maiki
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Re: MIDIYoke NT in Sonar with DXI Synth?
« Reply #18 on: Mar 20th, 2005, 5:58am » |
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Well, someone else just came up with a solution to this same problem, posted on the Cakewalk forum:
http://www.cakewalk.com/forum/tm.asp?m=407890&mpage=1&key=&# 407916
You (Jamie) were right that the problem related to the "audio engine". The solution was simple, but something that hadn't occurred to me before--to unselect the option "SHARE DRIVERS WITH OTHER PROGRAMS" in Sonar 4.
I guess that option is selected by default. What does it do? Why did it cause this problem.
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southery
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Re: MIDIYoke NT in Sonar with DXI Synth?
« Reply #19 on: Jan 17th, 2006, 1:23pm » |
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Thanks so much for this - You saved my life...(Well, actually, my laptop's life).
Cheers
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